Further Thoughts On Fandom & Reverse Racism

[woodwardiocom]

I just added this lengthy comment in my previous post, as a reply to jordan179. I thought it was worth bringing out for its own post. (Slightly edited for the different context.)

As a white person, I can understand the "it's bad if whites do it, therefore it's bad if blacks do it" position, since I've thought the same way from time to time. The reasons I have thought this way are:

1) The power of analogy is tempting. "Such-n-such happened to a black person. If such-n-such happened to me, how would I feel?"
2) My desire for justice believes that the same rules (of laws, of etiquette) should apply to everyone.
3) I have spent my life learning stuff, in order to better understand stuff, and this is just one more thing to learn, right?

The problem is that the lifetime experiences of a black person (or a woman, or a homosexual) are radically different from mine. There is pervasive discrimination that simply does not happen to me. They therefore bring an expertise to these topics that I do not share, and can't learn except by listening to them.

This is intensely frustrating! I'm a smart guy, with a good education, so I'm used to being right about stuff. The epiphany came when I had to admit that it was literally impossible for me to understand what their experiences were like, and I would never be able to match or exceed their expertise in the issues.

Therefore, in order for me to not say wrong things on the topic, it is absolutely required for me to listen to them, defer to their expertise, seek out their help, and acknowledge my own ignorance in the area.

Now, we've agreed that racism is bad. The problem is that the definition of "a racist act" has very fuzzy boundaries. White people set them in one place, black people have a larger set, Jews have a different set, Southerners, Northerners, Republicans, Democrats, SF fans, etc.

Given the above, when people disagree about whether a specific act is racist, the greatest expertise on the topic will generally not come from white people. When the white people are informed of this, they tend to get really cranky.

This is a problem in any demographic, but it can be worse for SF fans. One of the strongest messages of Campbellian SF is that smart people can solve any problem (even if it involves laws of physics you just discovered this morning), and if you read SF, you're one of the smart people. A more subtle message of Campbellian SF is "Men of Northern European extraction are the best!", since (per Asimov), Campbell actually believed that.

So, smart SF fans of Northern European extraction, when they are told that they are wrong about issues of race, and are incapable of gathering the experiences necessary to be experts, throw huge pissy fits.

They need to learn to admit their ignorance and listen.

Comments

[gothelittle.livejournal.com]

Ah, and you see, that mindset is precisely part of the problem.

My Ethiopian nephews were actually adopted orphans *from* Ethiopia.

Yet people like you will be assigning them the very identity you just described here. "It was wiped out when they were brought here, literally wholesale, and oppressed and abused for centuries." Thus you will see them walking the streets, and you will make no effort to look at their facial features and hear them talk about Mama making injera and drinking buna (even if you know what you do with injera and how to drink buna) before assuming that their ancestors were brought here, literally wholesale, and oppressed and abused for centuries.

Ironically, that would lead to a wipe-out of their culture and heritage... by YOU!

Please, think about this instead of automatically resorting to the skin-color explanation and everything that springs from it.

[tamidon.livejournal.com]

that's a lovely story, and I do appreciate Ethiopian culture, but it ignores that even tho theyare coming from a culture where they werent oppressed and abused for centuries they will have to deal with a world that will see them thru that lens. Saying I am the one doing it does not change the fact that it happens. Recognizing pervasive, systemic racism is not erasing tribal identity.
Also "Think about this instead of automatically resorting to the skin-colour explanation" really sounds like 'Stop pulling the race card"

[gothelittle.livejournal.com]

And I am trying, possibly vainly, to explain that they will always have to deal with a world that will see them through that lens... until we change it.

I'm up for changing it.

Are you?

[tamidon.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that saying race as a concept should not exist is a useful approach, but if it works for you, go for it. I think that denying race denies racism, and that just because I say it shouldn't exist doesnt mean it won't. I would rather fight it then try to rename it.

[gothelittle.livejournal.com]

"Race as a concept" is actually very new (historically speaking), and localized mostly to the U.S. Throughout history and in most countries today, tribe is far, far more important. In some cultures, even tribe was nowhere near as important as national identity - a dark-as-night Roman citizen in Egypt had more rights and better recognition throughout the Empire than a non-citizen who looked as Italian (Roman) as the Emperor.

I am not talking about a renaming (as I do not believe that tribalism ceased to exist because of racism in some parts of the world), but a refocusing.

Racism is an invasive vine that strangles discourse, harmony, and understanding. As long as you continue to feed it in the name of "not denying it", it will continue to grow. Snip it at the ground, and five more will grow from its stump. You have to deny it nutrition to really kill it for good.

Every time you say, "Oh, that person has dark skin. He's black. Therefore, I shall automatically assume he has lived his life under the direct oppression of evil white people and treat him thusly," you feed the vine. What I'm asking is that you get to know him first, and view him as an identity even a little bit smaller than everyone who has had the same range of tint in his or her skin.

[tamidon.livejournal.com]

Saying that I am feeding the vine of racism by recognizing that black people around me are treated profoundly differently than I am is a really bizarre interpretation to me. Believing that if you refuse to see it then you are somehow helping erase it is just plain magical thinking.As a country we, as citizens, can not get to know each person individually, to recognise everyone's individual identity, and we have to, as a society, change how we view greater communities.

[gothelittle.livejournal.com]

Well, if you think it'll erase racism for you to treat every single person you see according to his or her skin color, I guess there's nothing I can really do to convince you differently.

I will continue to treat each and every person as I find them, when and where I come in contact with them.

[tamidon.livejournal.com]

that not what i said I was doing, not what I believe. I try to treat all people as I find them, but I do not pretend that everyone gets to experience the world the same way I do. To pretend that it helps to believe such fantasies helps no one and solves nothing, tho it does allow you to ignore reality.

[gothelittle.livejournal.com]

Ah, now, I'm not speaking against realizing that not everyone experiences the world the way I do.

I'm speaking against assuming that you know how everyone experiences the world based on nothing but their skin color.

[gothelittle.livejournal.com]

And as I keep trying to explain, this isn't about pretending that everyone gets to experience the world the same way that you do.

It's about not pretending that you already know how they got to experience the world once you categorize their skin color on your handy little chart.

[mangosteen]

If I hear what you're saying correctly, you're saying that well-meaning people often do others a disservice by making assumptions about their experience of the world.

Is that correct?

[gothelittle.livejournal.com]

This is correct. I also doubt that racism can end as long as people, well-meaning or not, make assumptions about other people's experience of the world and its similarity - or difference - to their own based on skin color. :)

[mangosteen]

Thanks for the quick reply. :)

That would seem to imply that it therefore does people a service to take no actions based on assumptions about their experience of the world based on skin color.

Does that seem like a reasonable implication based on your statement?

[gothelittle.livejournal.com]

Yes, it does. :)

That isn't to say that there is no way whatsoever that you can guess at their experience of the world. If you see them driving an old used car, or if you know that they only make $20K/year, or if you see a tired-looking woman surrounded by lots of children, you can draw plenty of inferences that are *probably* correct.

But you can't really build a useful narrative of any person's life based on skin color alone.

I'm a storyteller by nature. I think people are fascinating.