This Crackpot and These Women

[woodwardiocom]

-The fifth episode of the first season of The West Wing is titled "The Crackpots and These Women". The first part of the title is not relevant to this post; the second part comes from a conversation near the end of the episode. The staff are gathered to enjoy the president's chili, and are all talking in little groups. President Bartlet quietly says to Josh and Leo, "Just look at these remarkable women," and goes on to talk about the strength and beauty and intelligence of the women in the room, of C.J. and Mandy and Mrs. Landingham and Donna.

-I know how he feels.

-Every day I look around at the women I know, and am astounded. I look at the women I love, the women who are my friends, even the women I don't know that well, and I am constantly in awe of their beauty and intelligence. Of their wit and style and passion. Of their wisdom and kindness and grace. And I am constantly amazed that I am privileged to know them and be part of their lives. My luck astonishes me anew every day.

-Thank you.

Comments

[jackwalker.livejournal.com]

Gynophile.

(Not that I disagree, mind you.)

[woodwardiocom.livejournal.com]

Gynophile.

-That's unrepentant gynophile to you, bub.

[drwex]

While I sympathize with your gynophilia, I find it slightly sad that we (society) still feel it necessary to comment at all on the remarkableness of _women_.

My life is filled with remarkable people. Some of them are women. They're writers, geeks, scientists, doctors, educators, specialists of every stripe. I recognize that women have had to overcome additional and substantial obstacles to achieve the levels of excellence they have. But I wonder if it's not just a bit of a "dancing bear" phenomenon to point out womens' excellence in particular.

[woodwardiocom.livejournal.com]

I wonder if it's not just a bit of a "dancing bear" phenomenon to point out womens' excellence in particular.

-That would only apply here if I considered them remarkable for being "as good as men". I don't. I consider them to be a hell of a lot more wonderful than most of the men I know, myself included. I am the dancing bear.

(I am probably biased here by my heterosexuality, but so be it.)

[drwex]

You are biased, but also slightly missing the point.

The point is that singling out women, as a class, is problematic. Whether one cheers their accomplishments at all, thinks they're equal, or thinks they're more praiseworthy, one is still saying "look at this unusual thing."

I find that slightly sad. It just ought not to be worth special notice that women-qua-women have done excellent things.

A feminist is someone who believes in the radical notion that women are people too. Or so I've long believed.

[asciikitty.livejournal.com]

The point is that singling out women, as a class, is problematic.

No. *you* are missing the point here. Jon isn't saying "Look! Women! And they Do Stuff!" This implies that he's looking at all women ever and being all shocked and stuff.

he's saying "I am surrounded by potential mates. And Gosh they are beautiful and accomplished and wow. My offspring will be So Smart and So Attractive."

I mean, not in so many words. But don't imply that the women around Jon don't want to be complimented, which is what you did just there. Jon is talking about specific women, for the most part. And he's extremely heterosexual. I would lay even odds that he doesn't notice men in the same way, if at all.

But you, Wex, are talking in a direction that takes away from the warm fuzzies of the compliment. Which I'm going to be arrogent enough to assume also applies to me.

[drwex]

don't imply that the women around Jon don't want to be complimented, which is what you did just there.

What I did was say that I don't feel comfortable complimenting women-qua-women for Doing Stuff. As I said earlier, I'm surrounded by brilliant and talented and insightful people. I have amazingly cool friends, wonderful lovers and people who do really fabulous things in a wide variety of fields. Singling out a group of them is something disquieting to me.

But you, Wex, are talking in a direction that takes away from the warm fuzzies of the compliment. Which I'm going to be arrogent enough to assume also applies to me.

*shrug* Sorry for taking away from your warm fuzzies. I think you're a fabulous, sexy, intelligent, and really interesting person. And a great snuggler. I feel like I can say that and be honestly effusive without needing reference to your sex.

[asciikitty.livejournal.com]

But...

What I did was say that I don't feel comfortable complimenting women-qua-women for Doing Stuff.

But he wasn't. He was complimenting us for doing stuff. Us meaning, the women in his life, and if he weren't straight, it might have been a "I'm surrounded by fabulous sexy men" comment.

As an excercise: if this post had been composed by a woman, about women OR men, would it have bothered you? Why or why not? answer in the space provided below, in 500 words or fewer. (additional space may be on the back of the form.)

[woodwardiocom.livejournal.com]

I would lay even odds that he doesn't notice men in the same way, if at all.

-Well, I notice some men that way. I don't gush about them quite as often, but it happens.

[asciikitty.livejournal.com]

(shhh... you're breaking my main argument... ;))

[badseed1980.livejournal.com]

See, to me, it sounds like he's saying, "the women I know are remarkable people." It's like saying, "my family are remarkable people" or "the martial artists I know are remarkable people".

...with the added bonus of "and they turn me on, too!" Because he's Jon. :)

As a woman, I am not offended.

[asciikitty.livejournal.com]

and you said in four lines what I meant. Hooray for being concise!

[woodwardiocom.livejournal.com]

-Since this post is meant to be one of gratitude and celebration, I'm not going to get into a long argument.

[asciikitty.livejournal.com]

no sweetie, your friends will get into arguments for you.

[rigel.livejournal.com]

This isn't really any of my business, but something did strike me while reading this that I figured I'd bring it up.

To me, the difference in perspective is linguistic. The phrase initially used was, "The women I know." I feel as though woodwardiocom was skewing it towards "the women I know" (as opposed to the ones on the show, which is what reminded him of this in the first place), whereas drwex may have been reading, "the women I know," and the gender distinction of amazing women rather than amazing people.

In other words, I think the gender bias is more overall cultural rather than any one person's in the conversation. After all, the first person to point out amazing women in specific was not the author of the post, but the actor in the show. The fact that the author continued with that distinction may point to the subversive nature of gender roles in general (which may have been DrWex's point, I don't know) rather than any slant the author has in specific. Either way, I think it's a testament to gender roles in general that the conversation went on as long as it did and began to become one of observation (of the disappointment) of the distinction of specific groups as one thing or another and subsequent frustration at someone responding to a compliment with social commentary (and possibly a judgment of the author in particular, though I did not read it that way).

And if this is just perpetuating an unwanted conversation, I can be done here. =)

[asciikitty.livejournal.com]

Ok, I think I see your point and that it's valid, but in the second half of your third paragraph you use a lot more polysyllabic words in a row than I can comprehend before I've finished my coffee.

My point was - given that I AM one of the women in Jon's life, he paid me a compliment (and we'll worry about how misguided it was later. I'm doing a whole lot of nothing these days.) DrWex made it into social comentary, which is true and valid in general, but in the context of "Women in Jon's life" takes away from the warm-fuzzies and was furthermore missing the point.

If Jon had said "the cats in my life are great" or "the knitters in my life are great" or "the role-players in my life are great" then there wouldn't have been a problem. Since "the people I might want to someday get into the pants of/ like to look at because they turn me on are great is a large and bulky construction, he used shorthand. I think.

But now I may be missing the point.

[rigel.livejournal.com]

Sorry about the pre-coffee gender studies wanking. Had I known, I would have brewed you a pot! =)

Situations like these are challenging in general. J. complimented the women in his life. W. was reminded of society's treatment of women through the need to comment when they as a group are spiffy (see: Chris Rock's bit about white people saying about black people, "S/he speaks so well!") and mentioned it. J. indicated that he did not feel it was the intended message of his post, pointed out that he often thinks of women as 'more wonderful' than men and threw his sexual orientation into the mix. Around here you commented on how an expression of wonderment and gratitude had turned into a debate as to whether or not it was grounded in gender bias . . . and so on.

In my incredibly biased and completely irrelevant opinion, I think no one's in the wrong here (nor do I think anyone else is blaming either). J. said something nice about women. W. pointed out possible problems with complimenting a group overall. Discussion happened. You added that this was all supposed to be a nice, warm fuzzy in the first place. Ok.

[woodwardiocom.livejournal.com]

the actor in the show.

-Addressing strictly the question of The West Wing: President Bartlet was around 60 years old at the time of the episode. I think part of his point was, "Look at what we've been missing." Go back a few decades from the time of the show, and you have an era where women simply couldn't have accomplished what "these women" had accomplished, since society would have made it much harder for them. Bartlet grew up in an era where women like that were much scarcer. Now, things are better. (Not perfect, but better.) And now, we are blessed with the strength and intelligence of these women, who in earlier years would have been kept in the kitchen. This is a good thing, a great thing, well worth celebrating. For Bartlet, recognizing that they are remarkable is not a comment on how they're "as good as men", but an acknowledgement that women have always been remarkable, but were not always allowed to show it, and that we are blessed to live in an era when their potential is bursting forth.

(And this attitude is certainly part of my feelings on the women in my life, but is far from all of it.)

[woodwardiocom.livejournal.com]

-I believe your assumption that I am comparing women to men is flawed. I am comparing the women I know to the female population at large, and saying that the women I know are in the top 10%, as far as I am concerned. That comparison cannot be sexist.

-I also, a few comments up, compared the women I know to the men I know, but that comparison is biased by my sexual preferences. Arguing that that comparison is sexist is pointless; my attraction to women is not a cultural construct, it's physiological.

(Modulo the fact that I was raised in a largely homophobic society, and thus may have "nurture" biases. Nevertheless, by this point in my life, I think I'd know if men did it for me.)

[buxom-bey.livejournal.com]

MWAH!! You rock like a rocking thing! I love you.

[woodwardiocom.livejournal.com]

-And I love you. [kiss]

[asciikitty.livejournal.com]

I will say - women on your flist make posts like that. Not often, but ever. And you haven't commented in the same way.

Gender bias cost me the last job I loved. I don't feel safe in many parts of even this city alone, where men I know do. I get about five email chains a year saying "if you don't want to be raped, be these kinds of careful" and men don't get them.

I remove people's hands from my person at social events, because there is unwanted touch that the men in my life don't have to deal with.

And you're not wrong, it's not good to say "wow, women are doing such good things, aren't they cute."

But Jon's comment was really "this handful of people rocks" and yes, that handful of people does rock. I often say things like "I love the female friends I have right now" because it's NICE. It's good to be around strong women who stick up for themselves. It's good to be around women who are kind to other women. It's different, for me.

See, it might be an age thing. I have seen a lot of women react to take back the night events and women's studies classes and this radical notion of equality with hostility. I've seen women loudly proclaim, in rooms full of other women and no men: "I'm not a femminist" because being a femminist doesn't get them what they want (a high paying job, a husband, an A, whatever.)

I'm just enough younger that I've seen a lot of hostility from women about equality and women, and it's nice not to see that from the people I'm surrounded by now. It's nice to be in a social structure where Jon can say with honestly "these people are doing good things" and it's nice to be in a place where being a femminist isn't a dirty word.

Does that make sense?

[asciikitty.livejournal.com]

huh. I was responding to drwex. dunno what happened.

[tikvah.livejournal.com]

What is really funny is that recently, I noted mentally that I really liked the straight male men that are my friends these days, because I finally ended the last friendship with someone I felt I had to apologize for, and I realized how lucky I am that out of the hetero male population, my hetero male friends rock. My bi and gay male friends rock too, but there is less of a divergence in those groups from what I perceive to be the mythical norm.

We live in a funny world. :-)

[sebastian-tombs.livejournal.com]

I am completely unclear on how this nice post deserves to be turned into an argument.

In any case, I agree